Brad Shreve
00:00:03
I have two guests on Queer we are today. Welcome Emma Goswell and Sam Walker.
Sam Walker
00:00:08
Hello, Brad. Lovely to see you.
Emma Goswell
00:00:11
Thanks for asking us on, Brad.
Brad Shreve
00:00:13
Oh, it’s a pleasure to have you on. I listen to other shows regularly and I’m always on the search to be a guest, just so the listeners know. I like to be a guest on other shows just because I like to talk about myself, as you well know. And it helps to let people know about my show. I was thrilled when I found Coming Out Stories, which Emma is the host and Sam is the producer. What’s really great is not only was, I guess it has now become one of my favorite podcasts, and in fact, I have said I subscribe or follow, I guess they call it nowadays, dozens of podcasts, but very few are on auto download. And your show, Coming Out Stories, is one of those on auto download.
Emma Goswell
00:00:52
How many of you listen to them, Brad? Because there’s loads and loads there now, aren’t there?
Brad Shreve
00:00:55
Oh, my goodness. I couldn’t tell you how many because I was binge listening.
Sam Walker
00:01:01
I love that.
Brad Shreve
00:01:01
Just over and over and over again. And then I was listening to Sam’s podcast, Desert Diaries because one after but these are only five minutes long about your move to the desert.
Sam Walker
00:01:13
It gets longer.
Brad Shreve
00:01:14
Oh, it does.
Sam Walker
00:01:15
Especially in COVID when I’m like, I’m just at home, I’ll say stuff. Yes.
Brad Shreve
00:01:20
I was doing tests and they kept rolling over, so I just kept going, thanks.
Sam Walker
00:01:24
It gets a bit hairy, scary. It goes somewhere. But this is my move. This is my big move. As you can hear, I’m not local to the desert, but I’m sure we’ll get into that.
Brad Shreve
00:01:35
Yeah, we’ll get into that. So you both have really impressive broadcasting backgrounds, but based on what I’ve seen on your resumes and LinkedIn and that sort of thing, I’m going to take an educated guess that you met each other when you were both with BBC and Manchester. Is that a good guess?
Sam Walker
00:01:51
That’s correct.
Emma Goswell
00:01:52
That is correct.
Brad Shreve
00:01:53
Oh, I’m brilliant.
Emma Goswell
00:01:55
Yes. So the roles were reversed then. So I was your producer, right, Sam?
Sam Walker
00:01:58
You were. I think the first time I ever saw you was when the BBC was in this very old building. Brad, people think of the BBC as being all sort of sparkling and glamorous, but in fact, the BBC, a lot of the buildings are completely falling down. We’re talking 1970s brown carpet and there.
Emma Goswell
00:02:14
Was asbestos in the ceiling and it.
Sam Walker
00:02:16
Was all yeah, like really falling apart. And so these studios where you would sit and broadcast the show were literally a five minute walk away from the newsroom. So all the newsreaders would pop into this, like, little vocal booth, a bit like the one I’m sitting in now, and read the news. So, as the presenter of the show, when you went it’s time for the news. You then have to look up to a teeny tiny TV screen in the corner of your studio, and that is where you would see your newsreader. So you could physically see your newsreader, so you could wave if you wanted to, and they could wave back, but they weren’t kind of in your eyeline. So the first time I ever saw Emma was I went and let’s go to the news with look down. I was like, oh, who’s this?
Emma Goswell. I was like, okay. And I looked up, and there she is in the little TV screen. And little did I know at that moment where our lives would go together.
Emma Goswell
00:03:07
Oh, my goodness. Yeah, I’d forgotten that. Yeah, I’ve started as a news reader. That’s right.
Brad Shreve
00:03:12
I’m getting a little teary eyed here.
Emma Goswell
00:03:15
Who’s that? Lesbian with a quiff reading my news.
Sam Walker
00:03:20
I love the fact your hairstyle hasn’t changed that much. Even though you’ve gone blonde, you’ve gone back you’re back to where you were coming out stories.
Brad Shreve
00:03:27
Emma, you are the host, and I’ve heard you say gay or lesbian. Which do you prefer to go by or doesn’t matter.
Emma Goswell
00:03:32
Oh, God, that’s a good question. I don’t know. I suppose I should know the answer to that, really?
Sam Walker
00:03:37
What’s your paperwork say, Emma?
Emma Goswell
00:03:39
What does my paperwork say?
Sam Walker
00:03:41
Your gay paperwork.
Emma Goswell
00:03:43
My gay paperwork. I’ve got my lesbian stripes. It’s weird, isn’t it? And I’ve talked about this in the podcast quite a lot for some reason, and I’m sure this is lesbophobia or some sort of heteronormativity. A lot of people hate the word lesbian, and I think I definitely started in that bracket of just not liking the word lesbian. It’s just so loaded.
It wasn’t in 1980s when I came out, so I think I always said that I was gay. Yeah, but I’m happy with either now.
Brad Shreve
00:04:09
Sam, you’re the producer of the show, and you also happen to be a straight person.
Sam Walker
00:04:14
I am, yeah.
Brad Shreve
00:04:16
And, like, why do I have Sam on here, on Queer We Are? Well, when Emma said that you kind of brainstormed the idea for coming out story, she said the words came out of your lips first to do the show.
Sam Walker
00:04:26
Yeah. And I suppose as I get older as well, Brad, I kind of bizarrely, slightly shy away from the term straight, even though all my relationships have been heterosexual relationships. That’s how my life has gone. I also kind of think, hang on, I don’t know if I want to be labeled particularly one way or another. So I think of myself as an ally of the LGBTQ plus community as opposed to how I identify. Well, right now I’m married to a man. Now, just as a caveat, if he’s listening, I don’t wish not to be married to you.
Emma Goswell
00:04:58
He’s a very nice man, I will say.
Sam Walker
00:05:01
But also, I also look at so many people around me who have these kind of coming out stories where they go, oh, when I was married for 35 years and then I met a woman and everything changed and I’m now with it and I’m like, well, who knows? I don’t know what the future holds. So in a way that I don’t ever want to pigeon my whole myself, I would also say, absolutely an ally. And I always slightly cringe when these words come out of my mouth, because I know so many people are going, oh, I’ve got loads of gay friends. I’ve just got so many gay friends.
Brad Shreve
00:05:31
Believe it or not, we actually haven’t formally started the show.
Sam Walker
00:05:36
Brad is now thinking, what have I done? What have I done?
Brad Shreve
00:05:44
No, no, this is wonderful. Here we go with the usual. I’m your host, Brad Shreve.
Emma Goswell
00:05:50
And I’m Emma Goswell.
Sam Walker
00:05:51
And I’m Sam Walker. Hello.
Brad Shreve
00:05:53
And queer we are.
Emma Goswell
00:05:54
Queer we are.
Brad Shreve
00:05:56
Or not.
Emma Goswell
00:05:59
And queer we mostly are. Or maybe you have to rename the episode.
Brad Shreve
00:06:04
Welcome to Queer We Are, the show where each week I talk with entertainers, activists, politicians, artists, and more of the most interesting LGBTQ people from diverse backgrounds. From their stories of success find motivation from the challenges they overcame and what they learned along the way.
OK, Emma, now that we’re back, before we say anything, I have got to congratulate you, because you kind of had a little bit of a big event. You and your wife, Siobhan, had something big.
Emma Goswell
00:06:16
Technically, we’re not married, but never mind.
Brad Shreve
00:06:18
Oh, I apologize.
Emma Goswell
00:06:19
Oh, no, that’s fine. People make the assumption
Brad Shreve
00:06:20
out of wedlock
Emma Goswell
00:06:21
we are living in sin. Brad, I don’t know if you’d be able to continue the conversation we have.
Brad Shreve
00:06:28
I might need to turn off before the FCC gets us. We had a big event last year. What happened?
Emma Goswell
00:06:33
Are you referring to the baby?
Brad Shreve
00:06:35
Of course I’m referring to the baby.
Emma Goswell
00:06:38
Yes. Well, after, oh, gosh, about 50 years of wanting to be a mother and hoping that one day that would happen, I’ve finally got to be a mum. Well, yeah, it was last year. I was thinking, no, it’s this year. No, it is last year. I’m confused.
Brad Shreve
00:06:53
For those future people, it was March 2022.
Emma Goswell
00:06:56
That’s correct.
Brad Shreve
00:06:57
What’s her name?
Emma Goswell
00:06:58
March the 15th, baby Neve Abigail Frieda Goswell came into the world in Oldham Royal Hospital. And I put on Twitter, actually, it’s it’s quite an important place to be born, because the world’s first IVF baby was born in Olden Royal over 40 years ago. And in March 2022, nev became the newest IVF baby to be born in Older Royal Hospital. So, yeah, it’s been one hell of a long journey to parenthood and, yeah, there were a lot of complications. It’s been very stressful. She was very poorly to begin with, but I couldn’t be happier and I couldn’t feel luckier, to be honest. So I am a 51 year old stay at home mum now, is what I do.
Brad Shreve
00:07:37
And I’m sure you’ve been asked this before. You had a baby at 50? Are you crazy?
Emma Goswell
00:07:42
Yeah, well, I didn’t actually physically go through it, although the woman in the post office yesterday thought that I’d given birth to the baby because I’m pushing around, aren’t I? Oh, my God. No, I did not give birth to this creature. Five years into the menopause, I don’t think that was going to happen, was it? No. My slightly younger, well, ten years younger partner, Shavon, gave birth. It is interesting, but I was at a baby group this morning and there’s one bit in the baby group where you do all the nursery rhymes and you got to get up and do a dance in a circle and got to lift a baby above your head. It’s like weightlifting. And I’m like, I am definitely the only person in this circle lifting a baby above my head and having to do all these dance moves with a baby who is over 50. They’re all in the, like twenty s and thirty s, aren’t they? Because they’ve all got their first baby. So it is difficult. And I’m the only one going, oh, I’ve got to get on the floor. So, yeah, it is quite weird. But I’m just loving it. I’m absolutely loving it. And I think it was the right time for me, I think in my twenty s and thirty s and even forty s, I was just a bit mad and just had a bit more of a chaotic lifestyle, really, and I didn’t want to settle down and I was selfish. But now I am perfectly capable and happy of staying at home and doing nappies and putting all my energy into making sure another person is happy and fed and not sitting in around shit.
Sam Walker
00:09:03
That’s a beautiful picture, isn’t it? That’s basically motherhood, though.
Brad Shreve
00:09:06
That’s the way it is. So I think it’s awesome. Wonderful. Wonderful.
Emma Goswell
00:09:10
Thank you.
Brad Shreve
00:09:11
I also want to make sure we get one thing in before we start talking about the podcast. In addition to the podcast, you did have a book you published together. It is also called Coming Out Stories and we are going to discuss it later.
Emma Goswell
00:09:22
I’ve got a copy.
Brad Shreve
00:09:23
We’re not recording video, but Emma is holding up the cover of the book, which happens to look just like the cover of their podcast art.
Emma Goswell
00:09:30
Well, you don’t want to spend extra money on.
Brad Shreve
00:0932
And hopefully we’ll talk about it later. But I wanted to make sure we got that in so people would know it’s in there. It is out, it’s available and the link is in the show notes, as I always say.
Emma Goswell
00:09:44
Bless you. Thank you, Brad.
Brad Shreve
00:09:46
So, both of you, what is your definition of success?
Emma Goswell
00:09:49
Go on, Sam.
Brad Shreve
00:09:50
Emma wants time to think.
Sam Walker
00:09:52
I think it is something that yeah, you know what, I think it’s something that is ever changing and I definitely, in my life, have my opinion of what success is. And I have done this through achieving goals that I’ve set for myself. And I suppose I’ve set these goals where I’ve got it. When I get there, I am successful. And then I’ve got there and either gone, oh, well, what now? Where do I go from here? And therefore, what is success? You can’t ever feel successful if you’re constantly chasing the next goal. And sometimes I’ve achieved that goal and got there and gone, this is awful, I hate it, I don’t want to do this. I’ve spent ten years working towards this and now I’m here, I’m like, oh, I don’t like it at all. So I really think now success is feeling content, and I think that is something that takes a lot of work. I don’t think it’s something that happens to you. I think it’s something that you work very hard on feeling. And I think happiness is a choice and a positive outlook is a choice. And sometimes that choice is really, really hard to make when bad shit happens to you. And I personally, as I know thousands of people do every single day, I’ve been through the ringer over the last 18 months, and I sit here now and go for bloody hell. If you’d said to me, well, happiness is a choice, Sam, I would have said, I’ll piss off. No, it’s not. It’s impossible to feel happy when you’re facing this much pressure. But actually, even though it is incredibly hard sometimes to feel happy when you’re up against it, I do still believe it is a choice. And success here absolutely is a feeling. In a state of mind, I think.
Emma Goswell
00:11:37
I’m going to echo a lot of what Sam said, actually, and it definitely is something that changes your perception of success, changes over your life. Because I was thinking about this earlier today and I was thinking, God, I clearly remember when I was a teenager actually saying to someone, when I was at university, oh, if I’m successful when I’m older, I’m going to buy a Jaguar.
Sam Walker
00:11:54
Why?
Emma Goswell
00:11:56
Fucking Jaguar. As in the car brand.
Brad Shreve
00:11:58
Yes, I know.
Emma Goswell
00:11:59
I thought that because my dad had a Jaguar and he was really successful in his career, and I just thought, that’s what you do if you’re successful, you go and buy a Jaguar, which maybe if you’re a man in having a mid-life crisis.
Sam Walker
00:12:09
And the 1970s. Yeah.
Emma Goswell
00:12:15
That’S what you do. But obviously I never bought a Jaguar. The only money I got, I bought a Mini, and I bloody love it. And I’m not interested in material showings of wealth, but I would like a nice house. And the other thing of success I always wanted, which I did get this year, is a kitchen island. And I’m much happier with a kitchen island than a Jaguar. But, yeah, I’ve got that and I’m very happy with it. But equally, as Siobhan always said, when we were looking for a house for ages before the baby was born, Shavon, my partner, said, Look, I don’t really care where we are too much or what it’s like being happy. And your success is who you share your house with and the fact that we’re all happy and healthy and under one roof that is vaguely dry, a couple of leaks in the kitchen, let’s not go there. That is success. We have got a happy household and the Same as Sam said, it’s just being content in yourself. And if I could just refer to the podcast as well. I mean, God, how many conversations we had some about trying to monetize it and get money and make it bigger and all this, we haven’t quite managed to do that.
Sam Walker
00:13:17
93,000 we have had that conversation so.
Emma Goswell
00:13:20
Many times and haven’t done it. But I don’t measure the success of coming out stories in terms of how much money we’ve made, ie. Nothing, or even necessarily how many people to listen to. I would like more people to listen to it. That is a measure of success. But actually, the measure of success, I think, is those messages that we get that we’re not expecting from people all over the world going, I have found your podcast and it has saved me, it has really helped me and I really have identified with so many people on it and it’s made a massive bloody difference to me. And having teenagers who are questioning their gender on Twitter DMing me and saying, thank you so much. That is a successful podcast when you have people reacting to it like that. That is success. Forget the money.
Sam Walker
00:14:05
Yeah, we literally move to tears by messages we get from people that can be so simple. People who’ve obviously used Google Translate to send a message and have said that I don’t speak English really, but you know, the one that really stuck out with me is someone just said, I don’t feel alone anymore. And you think, oh my gosh. And however you identify with your gender or sexuality, especially in teenage years, we all felt that no one is like me moment. And to feel that the amazing people who’ve told stories to us, not us per se, but the amazing people who’ve shared their lives and their struggles and their challenges and their successes and their joys, they are the people who have reached out to people all over the world and that’s amazing.
Brad Shreve
00:14:49
So you talk about all the amazing people that you talk to and I love that so many stories are so different, yet so similar. What is the one thing that you’ve learned, hearing people’s coming out stories? That is the most common thing that you hear.
Sam Walker
00:15:03
Do you want to answer?
Emma Goswell
00:15:04
M well, I would say this does sound a bit of a cliche, but it is a cliche phrase. It gets better. But we have had some quite casual and some quite funny coming out stories. But we’ve had stories where people have literally been thrown out on the streets and in the pouring rain and have had to go knock on friends doors because their family will never speak to them ever again. We’ve had various people who have suffered violent and verbal abuse because of coming out as gay or trans and every single one of those stories has a conclusion and has a happy ending of sorts. People who have gone on to find their own families in terms of other gay people or have happy relationships. Sometimes people may have gone on and got married, their parents may not have turned up to the marriage, but they’ve accepted it. And there’s always some resolution in some senses and some people have come out to their parents and they haven’t accepted it that day. But fast forward even a few months and that parent has gone through massive transformation and process to understand it and is now really celebrating their LGBT child. So every single story has, in its own sense, its happy ending and shows that people have to go on a journey. I hate the word journey, but people do go on so many journeys in terms of coming out and everybody comes out the end of it. And without question, even those people that suffered awful, awful abuse and awful experiences, every single person says they’re happier that they came out. Yeah, they are happier in themselves.
Sam Walker
00:16:48
And I absolutely that. And I would also say for the other stories, the stories where perhaps there was immediate acceptance, the fear and anxiety and shame that happened within that individual before they came out to their families. I mean, that’s what’s really hard to hear. People who spend years agonizing over the fact that their mums might not love them anymore or their best friends will turn against them or whoever it might be. And then actually, the majority of stories are people going, oh, amazing, great. I’m glad, thank you, I’m glad you’re happy and thank you for trusting me and telling me that. And that’s the majority of stories, in fact. And that’s where I think society there’s a lot of work society can do to make sure that most people know that. Generally people are accepting our allies. Although I think there is still a lot of work to do in anyone who rolls their rise and goes, oh, it doesn’t matter if someone’s gay anymore, no one cares, it’s 2023. Bullshit. There is still so much hatred, so much discrimination, so much it’s still illegal. We’ve just had the World Cup in Qatar last year where I was furious with so many people saying, oh, we should just respect the cultures and the traditions of the country. Oh, did you respect apartheid in South Africa? Because that was the cultures and traditions. So no bullshit. And calling that out is very, very important. But yeah, I think for so many people, there was that moment of absolute fear and dread and the courage it takes to know that potentially you’re going to lose everything. Telling the people you love most in the world something that you fear may make them not love you anymore. What courage does that take? What guts does that take? And I think that’s a lot of straight cities, people don’t understand that. That is what people go through.
Emma Goswell
00:18:38
I know.
Sam Walker
00:18:38
When you and I did an interview about the book and it was on Five Live, BBC Five Live, the radio station I used to work for in the UK. Before I moved here to the state. And it was with my old co host, a man called Chris, who I sat next to for years, eight years. He and I presented programs together. And he was hosting the show when Emma and I were talking about our book, and he said about 30 minutes in, I had no idea that this anxiety and shame and self loathing was going on within so many queer people. I feel awful that I had no idea. And I think the majority of people have no idea. And that’s why we would love more people to listen to the podcast, perhaps, who aren’t part of the LGBTQ plus community, because actually, everyone within the community, guess what? We all know how we feel. But people outside, you have got no idea.
Brad Shreve
00:19:30
As I said when I was a guest on the show, I’m not going to say it wasn’t I didn’t have, like, embracing with open arms, but I agonized for 35 years before I came out. Absolutely hated myself, and the hate continued after I came out. It took a long time to move past that, but I had it so much smoother than so many people. The one friend I had that died from complications from AIDS, he was thrown out of his house and he caught AIDS when he was a hustler on the street in Los Angeles. He had a good life when he was in the hospital. Before he died, I took him in the wheelchair and he was taking pictures of flowers, and he enjoyed life to the full list, to the day he died. But one of the things that he did say to me was, I guess this is what happens when you’re a hustler and you sell in your ass. Then what really made me sick is his family had nothing to do with him until he died, and then they immediately flew out and took him away. Anyway, I’m happy to hear that. There’s so many good stories, too, as well. The ones that get tossed out are the ones that break my heart. And I lived in Hollywood, and I saw a lot of homeless kids that they come out to LA. Thinking it’s all glitz and glamor, and trust me, it is not unless you can afford to go to Melrose Avenue all the time. They are all beautiful and blonde, where the rest of LA is actually just as fat and frumpy as the rest of the country. So, Emma, I have a question for you. Over the years in your career, I know you worked for Gaydeo and actually for those in the States. Tell us what Gaydio is.
Emma Goswell
00:21:01
Well, apparently they are the world’s largest LGBT radio station. In fact, I don’t work for them anymore, but they got bigger last week and they’ve got dab output in Glasgow, Leeds, Sheffield. Loads of extra cities as well, but mainly Manchester and London and Birmingham. Yeah, loads and loads of listeners. And loads of listeners worldwide, really, because, again, Same thing with the podcast. People just type stuff into Google, don’t they, or their search engine, and they find the gay radio station and they found Gaydio. It started in Manchester as a very small project just supporting Manchester Pride, and it just grew and grew and grew. And I was very lucky enough to copresent The Breakfast Show from 2012 to 2017, when we first took over a big national radio station, so we suddenly had a lot more listeners. So it was a big deal to be hosting The Breakfast Show on that station.
Brad Shreve
00:21:52
Yeah. Here in the States, we have Pride Radio, which I think people are probably more familiar with here in the States, but with the internet, it really doesn’t matter. You can choose one or the other.
Sam Walker
00:22:00
Exactly.
Brad Shreve
00:22:01
But you didn’t just work for Gaydio. Do you also worked for Virgin Radio yes?
Emma Goswell
00:22:06
That’s much more recently, that’s just in the last two years, which Virgin big radio station and organization decided, oh, maybe we should be doing some gay stuff, and did a pop up station for the whole of the summer. So June, July and August. So it’s not a permanent set up, but, yeah, they operate a gay spin off station, Virgin Pride.
Brad Shreve
00:22:28
The reason I’m asking this is obviously on those shows, you were out, but before that, you had a pretty extensive career. And I’m curious, during those time periods, were you closeted, were you out, or was it just I’m not going to bring it up, whatever.
Emma Goswell
00:22:44
I’ve never really been closeted, but also, I started my career as a newsreader, so it would never have come up, really, because you don’t get to show your personality, you get to read your news script.
Brad Shreve
00:22:52
You didn’t say, I’m gay, here’s the news.
Sam Walker
00:22:56
No, I didn’t. Fair enough, I didn’t, though. So, yeah, I didn’t really come out. But as soon as I was, I sort of went from being a news reader to then being a producer to then being a presenter. It was a long road to being a presenter, really, and I suppose the first presenting I did was on Gadia, so that was pretty obvious, really. So then when I started doing presenting with the BBC, it was just natural for me to always be open about who I was. And I think there was definitely a few people that were surprised by that or shot by that, because in BBC local radio, there weren’t that many people being out and proud on air. But I just thought it’s too short. You can’t actually be a good radio presenter if you’re not going to be honest with yourself and your listeners. You have to give up part of yourself. So, I mean, there have been plenty of presenters over the years who have just never mentioned it and just crack on and pretend that they’re straight. But the listeners not getting 100% from that presenter, are they? They’re not really knowing them. So, no, I’ve always been out as long as I can, really.
Brad Shreve
00:23:59
So, Sam, I’m curious, with you being a producer, you now have your own production company. So being a producer with coming out stories, when you brainstormed this with Emma, obviously there was a part of it that was deep in that you understood the situation of the coming out stories and coming out. But as a business person, was it also maybe, perhaps part of your business plan? You think, oh, this could be a good production, this may be popular.
Sam Walker
00:24:24
You, Brad, are giving me a lot more credit than I deserve when it comes to having any sort of business acumen. My background was a presenter. I was a radio presenter. So I kind of went from I mean, early on in my career, I worked in sort of PR and marketing. Then I moved into radio and I was a radio presenter for 20 years. So to start off with, I worked for those kind of hit music stations and played Lady Gaga and gave away a car, and it was all kind of fun and shouty and ten grade songs in a row. And then I got my serious news voice on and went to work for the BBC and then work for National BBC Radio. And then, I suppose, without really realizing it, I was setting up an escape route in that I loved my time at the BBC and I wanted to there’s a big world out there. And I was like, I’m getting in the car and driving to the Same studio six, seven days a week. So I sat at my production company and started my first ever podcast I made was called What Goes On Here? And it was stories of people who completely transformed and turned their lives around. And it’s something I presented, but I taught myself how to produce podcasts by making that podcast, and I think 2015, I made that and I was very lucky. It got commissioned by Audible and I made four seasons for Audible, and I think two of them are now available on Apple podcasts and the like. But during that process of learning how to make podcasts and I’d been a presenter and I’d worked with producers, so I kind of knew that role as well, but I sort of pivoted more into that role and then I just wanted to learn more about other things and other subjects. So I started to work within my business for a couple of organizations, but really, I. Wanted to make a show that could help people. It sounds sort of trite and basic, but I just thought about shows that I wanted to make people feel really good after they had heard them. And what goes on here was something that was I found very it was free therapy, essentially, interviewing all these people who totally turned their lives around. It was incredible to do. I loved it. And a lot of the feedback I got from that show about you made me feel like if I was you know, things were very dark, that there was light and that I could I could achieve happiness after feeling very boxed in. Emma was living with me at the time. I thought about so many friends who talked to me about being in the LGBTQ plus community and kind of wishing that, especially if they were somewhere where there wasn’t a big gay scene, it wasn’t like Manchester or Brighton or La or Palm Springs, where there was a very obvious big LGBTQ plus community. And we were just spitballing, really. I think we were having a cup of tea and we were downstairs, and I just said, I just it just kind of came to me, and I went, wouldn’t that be great just to hear from people, real people? I’m not talking to celebrities who’ve got maybe an agenda and they’ve got a book to flog or a movie to promote, but people who actually are just in it for telling their stories and sharing their stories. Because I think stories are so powerful, and if we can all share them as human beings, that’s what makes us feel less alone, and it makes us feel like we have more in common. And again, when we talked a bit more about the show, it was about, well, yeah, it’s just all about love. It’s just wanting to love somebody without feeling guilty or shameful and wanting someone to love you without feeling that if they knew this about me, they wouldn’t love me, but I’m going to pretend that it’s not happening. Then they will love me. That’s just not a nice way to live. So it was really we didn’t even think about Monetization when we started, did we?
Emma Goswell
00:27:52
No, but didn’t even consider it. I think I’m writing remembering that I am so clueless and so unaware of podcasts or unaware of what’s important in life. I needed to be convinced. And I was like, oh, no, I’m not sure about this idea. I think it’s because you’re asking me to tell my coming out story. I was like, oh, no one’s interested in that. Why does anyone want to know what I was doing in 1989? But Sam had to literally twist my arm and go, this is a really good idea. People will be interested. And as soon as I started doing it and started interviewing people, even though I just started with my friends, I just found out so much information and it was like, talk about therapy. It was therapy for them. And when I’ve had so many people over the years, grown men who have broken down in tears because they’ve recounted stuff that they hadn’t talked about for years, talked about childhood school, bullying and. Stuff like that,
Brad Shreve
00:28:41
I would imagine it’d be therapeutic for you as well.
Emma Goswell
00:28:45
Yeah, I think so. I feel like I do feel like a sort of therapist. People always go, how do you get people to open up like that? And I don’t know, but I think people genuinely want to tell their stories, and I think that’s another thing that happens to LGBT people. You might come out. I mean, obviously we’re coming out every day, but you have this big sort of moment and you do it, and then people sort of know you and think they know everything about you, and you don’t really get to talk about it or talk about those emotions and feelings that you have prior to coming out as well. So I think people really relish telling their story and going through the whole experience, and it is a bit like therapy, but, yeah, it’s supposed to be for me as well, because I’m always chipping in and saying, oh, yeah, that happened to me as well. There’s a lot of me in it as well.
Brad Shreve
00:29:31
It’s really hard as a host when your guest is talking about something and it really clicks with you and you just want to jump in and shut up. I want to tell my side of the story. No, it’s about them. I have to back off. I’ve actually had to edit out sometimes when I did that, too often. Sam, now, you said the name of the podcast that you had was What Goes Here. And the name of your production company.
Sam Walker
00:29:57
Is What Goes On Media.
Brad Shreve
00:29:59
Now, you made a big event in 2019, you did a total change in your life, and I wish we could get really deep into that, because it would be a whole show on its own.
Emma Goswell
00:30:07
It is.
Brad Shreve
00:30:10
Yes, actually, it is. It’s a show called Desert Diaries. I suggest everybody listen to it. I was having a lot of fun listening to the show. It’s Sam’s perspective. A week by week short discussion of what it was like moving from Manchester to Phoenix, which dramatic change. What’s fun about Desert Diaries is she doesn’t criticize her, say, maybe to a degree, the way we do things in our fucked up ways in the United States, it’s looking at ourselves through the eyes of someone else. And Sam, your production company was getting started and we talked about it and helped, but you had to leave the BBC. So how scary was it taking that giant leap to reach your dream? Most people never do.
Sam Walker
00:30:54
Yeah, I think I started the sort of slow transition between working for the BBC and running my own company, and it was terrifying. And so I started What Goes On Media, named after a Velvet Underground song because I really loved Lou Reed.
Emma Goswell
00:31:11
I didn’t know that. Amazing.
Brad Shreve
00:31:13
I love Lou Reed, too. I don’t know that one.
Sam Walker
00:31:16
I love it. So it’s the Velvet Underground song. What goes on in your mind? I was listening to it the other day, running I love it. Yeah. So I started that quite a long time ago, and it’s kind of pivoted and gone through different transitions, but it was a huge leap to take. I was completely terrified to take that leap. The BBC in England is seen as sort of this kind of Holy Grail of broadcasting, and if you get a staff job at the BBC, wow, that’s really tough to get. And if you’re a presenter and you get a staff job, wow, that’s really tough to get. And it was very, very hard to get, and I worked incredibly hard to get there. And then again, I just had this voice in my ear going, Is this it? Is this it? Is this what you’re going to do forever? Work within that Same framework? What about the world out there? Hello? And I was like, almost like, Go away. I wish the voice would go away, because I was like, no, please. This is where I am, and my life is actually quite nice and comfortable, so bugger off. I don’t want to think about other opportunities and other possibilities in my life. So I squished it down for quite a long time, but then started to go, okay, well, if I did explore that voice and listen and maybe try and make a move and explore other things in the world and give my kids different opportunities. And I basically wanted to teach my kids that change wasn’t frightening. Or if it was frightening, it’s okay to be afraid. And I wanted to teach my kids that there are people who aren’t like them and have got different backgrounds and different cultures and all the rest of it, and just teach them to pivot and embrace and embrace scary things. And so I slowly started pulling back from the BBC and then kind of picked clients up to kind of as a proof of concept, can I do this? Are people going to pay me to make these shows for them? And are they going to pay me to develop? And who can I work with, and what sort of shows can I do? And I loved it because I love telling stories. So even if a company came to me and were like, hello, we’re a business network. We want to make a show about executives who want to become nonexecutive directors, you might go, that sounds absolutely tedious, but you know what? That someone’s life, and that’s someone’s passion and purpose in life. So actually, if you dig into pretty much anything and find out why people are passionate about it. It’s a fun thing to work with and work on. So I did have to make that leap, because the clients that they’ve built up over a few years, they were all in England and I had to phone them all up and say, oh, hello, I’m going to move to the other side of the world. Don’t leave me. But none of them did. None of them did.
Brad Shreve
00:33:43
Well, that’s the beauty of modern technology. Who gives a shit where you are?
Sam Walker
00:33:47
But this is pre COVID, so people didn’t Zoom. People didn’t know what zoom was, but we did.
Emma Goswell
00:33:52
Me, Sam and our publisher were the first people I knew that ever zoomed. We were zooming in 2019, weren’t we? I was like, look at us.
Sam Walker
00:33:58
Yeah, exactly.
Brad Shreve
00:33:59
So modern people in podcasting were zooming.
Sam Walker
00:34:03
They were. But, I mean, podcasting wasn’t anything to what it is today, and that’s the thing. So I’d already done quite a bit of remote recording and the like. Yeah. So it was terrifying, because I just thought, and I don’t have that safety net of the BBC anymore. I can’t call someone up and go, some Walker BBC, and they go, oh, yes, I’ve heard you on the radio. Now I’m in a country. People are like, who? What? Don’t care. No one replied to any of my emails for six months.
Brad Shreve
00:34:25
Oh, my.
Sam Walker
00:34:27
It was terrifying. I was applying for jobs way below my pay grade and well below my experience level, and people didn’t even reply. And I was like, oh, wow. But then someone did. And as soon as I did a job for somebody, everyone went, oh, you really know. Oh, hang on, you know what you’re doing. And so, yeah, within six months, I think, December 2019, I got my first kind of gig here in the States producing a show, and then it went crackers. So I was very lucky.
Brad Shreve
00:35:00
Yeah, you have quite a few shows.
Emma Goswell
00:35:02
Yeah, because she’s a very good producer, Brad. That’s why.
Brad Shreve
00:35:06
I don’t want to say it’s a cliche, but there’s a saying that we’ve all heard many times. If you love what you do and do what you love, and that is very clear with the two of you. You seem like you really have a passion for what you do, unless you’re faking it really well. And I don’t think no. So there are a lot of people that spin their whole lives, they have dreams and they aren’t even trying to pursue them, other than the typical advice, which would be, just do it. I want to know what advice you can give folks that are not pursuing what they really want to do.
Emma Goswell
00:35:39
Well, it’s about perseverance as well, a lot. And certainly for our careers, like getting into the media, it’s even harder now. But it was hard enough. When did I do my postgrad? Like, 2012? I was I always said I could wallpaper my flats with all the rejection letters I got from radio stations all over the country. When I say what I’ve got a postgrad in broadcast journalism and I won a national award, it wasn’t enough. And I had some experience, but it wasn’t enough. And I just got rejected, rejected, rejected. And a lot of people do give up. And I just had dog headed determination just to keep going until I got a really badly paid job, the wrong side of the M 62 and had the M 56 and had to drive to Chester at three in the morning on a Saturday and a Sunday morning to read like five in the morning news bulletins. I mean, awful. But you do these things, and you do it for very little pay. Because I just knew that was what I really, really wanted to do, and I knew that I would love it. So you have to put up with a lot of crap and a lot of bad pay. But I was just determined that that’s what I wanted to do. Once I found radio and discovered it, I loved it because I had a few other careers before that which I wasn’t that keen on, and I thought, actually, this is what I meant to do, talk shit. That’s what I’m meant to do with my life.
Brad Shreve
00:37:00
So, Sam, how do you answer that question?
Sam Walker
00:37:03
I think Emma is completely right about the resilience, and I think the way there’s a couple of things to think about firstly, is think about that goal that you have and does it make your stomach flip? And if it doesn’t make your stomach flip, it’s not the right goal for you, because it is going to be hard. It is going to be a hard, slog success. However you frame it is a journey. It isn’t something that you go from point A to point B in a straight line. You go from point you go from point A via point A 1.22, you know, and it’s round around and ran around, and then you go back to beginning and then you start again, and then you get nearly there, then you set back again. So it’s a hugely squiggly line. So if it doesn’t make you flip, if you’re not getting out of bed at 03:00 A.m., to drive 50 miles to speak for two minutes on a radio and you feeling resentful for that, it’s not the right thing to do. I was the Same. I would drive across London at four in the morning for very, very little pay because I couldn’t afford to live near where the radio station is. I got this really rubbishy job at because I adored it. And I would say as well, don’t put your dreams to one side thinking that, oh, well, everyone’s got dreams. Well, it’s never going to happen. I’d love to do this, but why would I be able to do that? Because someone said to me. And I talked about this in the first episode of Sam Walker’s Desert Diaries, when you talk about making this terrifying leap into something you’ve always wanted to do. And it was an interview I did for the podcast. What goes on here when a man with the most extraordinary story who had always wanted to be a writer, and he lived in a really terrible apartment that had literally rats in it, and the landlord put the rent up and he was working as a receptionist in a car showroom going, I’ve always wanted to be a writer. Why am I doing this? And he realized, Hang on, I’m barely scraping by doing a job I hate, living in an apartment I hate. What am I doing? So he essentially took a massive risk and quit his job and gave up his apartment and made himself homeless. And he went and slept in a park, literally on a park bench, and he had pads of paper and literal pens. And when I’m going to write a novel and either I’m going to write a novel and it’s going to get published and I’m going to be successful, I’m going to die. I mean, it was literally that hard a choice that he made, and he did it, and he wrote the novel, and it was successful and it won prizes, and he is incredible. And he said to me, maybe your dreams aren’t dreams. Maybe they’re your real life calling you.
Emma Goswell
00:39:26
Wow.
Sam Walker
00:39:27
And for me, that was something that stuck with me time and time and time again. Your real life calling you. Listen to that voice and remember as well that and one little final story that Craig said about when you aren’t making that decision, you’re terrified. And you almost can’t bear the thought of the moment when you make that decision. But when you think about it, it’s like jumping off a diving board in a swimming pool. And when you’re standing at the bottom of the ladder and you just see the steps going up, up, up. Even putting your foot on the first rung is really frightening because you know what’s coming. That club climb is coming. And you think, Ah, I’m scared. And the further you climb up, the further away you get from the ground, and you think, what am I doing? Should I just go back down? And then you pass the point of no return and you think, oh, shit, it’s coming. The jump is coming. But what happens when you finally leap off that diamond board? The fall isn’t terrifying. It’s exhilarating. And that’s what’s to remember. The build up is so much more frightening than actually doing the thing you’ve always wanted to do.
Emma Goswell
00:40:30
Sam, you need to do a Ted Talk. I think that’s what we need you to do. She’s very inspiring, isn’t she?
Brad Shreve
00:40:37
As a Ted Talk team, you would be fantastic. You’re just so delightful to talk to you. I really am happy I’ve had you on the show, I’m going to wrap it up with Emma doing what you do on your show. And that is I want you to give advice or some words to someone that may be struggling that wants to come out.
Emma Goswell
00:40:53
All right? Okay.
Brad Shreve
00:40:54
You ask it to every show.
Emma Goswell
00:40:56
I’ve had 95 people tell me this. This should be really easy, shouldn’t it? And yeah, I mean, the obvious thing is, is is not to rush it, because you have to be at the right place and you have to come out to yourself first. And I love one of the guys that we interviewed who said he actually came out to himself in the mirror first and practiced saying the words to himself in the mirror. And there’s only one person that’s ever said that to me. But I actually think it’s really good advice, because until he can 100% accept it yourself, how the hell is anyone else going to accept it? So talk to yourself in the mirror. Be very happy in your own skin and understand that you are meant to be the way you are, basically. And please do not feel the shame that heteronormative society has put on you because you are meant to be. If you are gay, you are meant to be gay. If you are trans, you are meant to be trans. And please learn to love yourself because there are far too many people in our community who are losing, who are taking their own lives because they’re not happy in their own skin, they’re not happy with the way society are treating them. So please be happy. I don’t want to lose any more of our community. And come and feel the love. When you’re ready, come out. And there are so many organizations out there that will support you.
Brad Shreve
00:42:08
No, they really are really are.
Emma Goswell
00:42:10
There really is a world of love waiting.
Brad Shreve
00:42:12
The two of you have been so delightful. You’re the guest that makes me wish I had a three hour show. I doubt you would give me that much time, but I could just keep going on and on and on.
Emma Goswell
00:42:24
I didn’t have time. But I nearly messaged him before and went, do think Brad knows what he’s let himself in for? He’s not going to get a word in it twice.
Brad Shreve
00:42:32
You know what? I was able to sit back and just listen to your stories. You made my job easy today. I love that the podcast again is Coming Out Stories and the book the same name.
Emma Goswell
00:42:43
Stories edited by Emma Goswell and Sam Walker yeah. Available in all good bookstores. But don’t buy it from Amazon.
Sam Walker
00:42:49
No. Do if you want to, though. Do buy it.
Emma Goswell
00:42:52
If that’s the only way of buying it. Buy it.
Brad Shreve
00:42:56
I’ll have links in the show notes, but yes, please support your local book stores, especially after COVID some of them are really struggling and some of them didn’t make it. So, support them big time.
Emma Goswell
00:43:06
Well said, Brad.
Brad Shreve
00:43:07
Thank you both for being on.
Emma Goswell
00:43:08
Thank you for asking me.
Sam Walker
00:43:09
Thank you so much been great.
